Interview with Malcolm Jones (producer of 'The Madcap Laughs')

issue #8
late 1984
by Ivor Trueman

Fans of Syd Barrett owe Malcolm Jones more than he'll everprobably get, not only was he responsible for producing the bettersolo sessions he's also took the time & trouble to document "TheMaking Of The Madcap Laughs" in a booklet of the same name.Last month I went to his home to interview him, listen to someof the outtakes & try & persuade him to let me reprint hisTheMaking Of The Madcap Laughs' booklet.I should however explain that I didn't particularly ask aboutthe 1969 session details etc purely because they are alreadycovered extensively in "The Making..." For those people withoutthis book I hope you forgive that and if you do ever get a copyyou'll understand why I didn't ask about those kinds things...

Firstly, before I switched my recorder on, Malcolm played mesnatches of Ramadan, Lanky pt's 1 & 2, Opel & Love You (slowversion) etc. Ramadan / Lanky seemed better than I'd expected.

They are very loose 'acidy jams' sort of like a lot of stuff in1968. They seemed very freeform & reminded me of The Soft Machine,Syd's contribution was not particularly self-evident but the tracksare still good.

I'd heard Opel before but Love You (slow version) was verynice & I hope it like the other outtakes sees the light of daysoon. What else can you say, it is slightly different... ThenMalcolm explained that he only plays snatches of songs to peoplebecause of some Bowie stuff he played to a guy who then put it outon bootleg. He then produced a tape with "Pink Floyd - BackingTrack" written on it. [no it didn't sound at all like Syd]

He wasgiven this in 1968 by Roy Featherstone (his boss) who didn't likethe direction the Floyd were heading along; he wanted a secondopinion. I switched on my cassette & the interview was underway.

Malcolm Jones: There's definitely a melody there, it's obviously a backingtrack for something they'd thought out in some form.

Ivor Trueman: She was a millionaire?

Malcolm Jones: Have you heard that?

Ivor Trueman: No... Untitled?In the Beechwoods? John Latham? (lookingthrough the recording titles in Malcolm's booklet)

Malcolm Jones: I often wondered on those tracks (pointing to book) cos in thestudio somebody says "Oh this is what it's called". On Silas Langthere's a line in it that goes "the land in Silas stands" & Ialways assumed that was just the engineer getting the title wrongand I actually went through on the early albums & tried to listento every lyric to see if there were any alternate lines that wouldhave been early titles.

Ivor Trueman: Sunshine - Wondering & Dreaming etc.

Malcolm Jones: yeh

Ivor Trueman: y'know the Octopus single that came out, it was released inFrance with a picture cover...

Malcolm Jones: They always did in those days, that was virtually standardprocedure. I mean England was the last country ever to botherabout those, certainly on the first runs I think virtuallyeverything had picture covers. I don't remember it to be honest.

Ivor Trueman: It looks like in Syd's style

Malcolm Jones: I doubt whether it would be, I'm sure if we'd any requests forSyd to do something it would have come through me at the time. Ifthey'd rung up EMI, EMI would have come round to me. It's probablysome young kid, whose as enthusiastic as the rest of us, but I'monly guessing.

Ivor Trueman: Have you seen any of Syd's drawings at all?

Malcolm Jones: Yeh a few, but I've probably seen a lot of them withoutrealising.

Ivor Trueman: Do you know what's happening with Peter Jenner & Andrew King?

Malcolm Jones: No, last I heard of them Peter was doing the Blackhill thing,but I'm not really sure what Andrew King is doing.

Ivor Trueman: I've heard that Peter's managing Swan's Way... & Billy Bragg

Malcolm Jones: He always had good taste.

Ivor Trueman: I think Andrew's forking for Westminster Music.

Malcolm Jones: You're joking, really..

Ivor Trueman: Well he's the guy who signs the copyright letters to us.

Malcolm Jones: Won't be Andrew, doesn't sound like his style.

Ivor Trueman: Were you still working for Harvest when 'Barrett' wasreleased?

Malcolm Jones: Just, I was just about to leave, I think it came out just asI left or just after. I'd seen the sleeve but I don't think I hadthe record. I had to write back to EMI & call them & ask them tosend me one.

Ivor Trueman: What did you think of it ?

Malcolm Jones: Mmmm. Alright. Except I was quite pleased when Time Out saidthat my tracks were better...though they'd done better stuff, whenI listen to some of their recordings...

Ivor Trueman: You've listened to some of their recordings,

Malcolm Jones: Mmm, just even the other tapes. It's quite nice to hearpeople sort of making cock-up's in the studio but they could haveused better cock-up's with Syd in a slightly better mind.

Ivor Trueman: The way they coupled take 1 of Feel onto take 5 of If It's InYou is misleading.

Malcolm Jones: There was something odd now I remember.

Ivor Trueman: Have you any idea how many copies of Madcap were sold ?

Malcolm Jones: It didn't sell at first

Ivor Trueman: It went gold

Malcolm Jones: Well I wish I could give you the total figures, cos when Iwrote to EMI when I was trying to get this stuff I did released,the first thing I did, was write to the royalties dept to be sneaky& find out what it's sold. And they suddenly found out that they'dunderpaid royalties so that meant Syd got a few grand. But it'sstill on catalogue & I still get royalty statements & it's amazingto see, I mean it's not available in so many countries as it usedto be but it's fascinating to see it's still in the catalogue inJapan, France, and America.

Ivor Trueman: Were you responsible for any of the recent T Rex releases?

(Malcolm also had quite heavy T Rex connections)Malcolm Jones: (shakes head sideways) I find it amazing, if EMI give away -or let someone else release their stuff then why can't they do thesame for Syd? At one stage I felt like just putting it out &saying sue me if you want but one of the reasons I particularlywanted to go through EMI was so they could pay Syd..just because ofhis royalties, I dunno if he still gets them.

Ivor Trueman: But the thing is the Pink Floyd as well..

Malcolm Jones: That's what I was saying about the contract, I never knew withSyd, Bryan Morrison said he was going to re-negotiate a contractfor Syd on his own; because he would be getting, in those days onSyd's solo stuff; Well I don't know what the Floyd got but theywere probably getting something around 6% royalty, so that's 1 1/2%each...So if that carried on on that basis that meant on his solostuff he got a quarter of 6%. I never knew if that happened ornot.

Pause while I load the "new" Syd Barrett tape into Malcolm'shi-fi. Last time I said the first track was not "Swan Lee" due toall the usual fuck up's. This is now the sound of me eating mywords. Meanwhile the tape begins..


Malcolm Jones: Swan Lee..the bass doesn't sound right, probably is. The basssounds a bit fussier than I remember it to be.


Syd sounds posh when he's singing, he's got a rounded vowelsound y'know? All his 'o's are 'O's. (Syd appropriately singsMOuses.)


Like the previous track, this version is similar to thosefound elsewhere so there was little to comment on. We were lookingthrough the tape listing at the back of Malcolm's book, trying tofind where these two tracks could have come from. Since thisversion of Vegetable Man is close to the 'Unforgotten Hero' versionwe wondered if it could just be an overdubbed 'Unforgotten Hero'take.

Malcolm Jones: What also happened, I'm only guessing, was that if that wasthe 4 track tape they might mix it down to stereo & add some otherinstruments, playing along as you mix. There's no point intransferring it onto another 4 track - you might as well mix it &save a generation of tape. So the only place that overdub willexist will be on the stereo master. That happened to me once withsomething else & we had to go all the way back...


Malcolm Jones: Whose tape is this? There's no echo or anything to suggestit's recorded in a studio. It sounds like he's doing it foroverdubbing though, strumming acoustic through the whole solo.

Ivor Trueman: He does that on Opel.

Malcolm Jones: ...leaves gaps

Ivor Trueman: I can't believe this would be left out of 'Barrett'

Malcolm Jones: Seems odd if it was...sounds like the same guitar as Dave'sstuff, I don't remember him having an acoustic guitar.
(track ends)

Malcolm Jones: He is pretty together there isn't he ?

Ivor Trueman: He is everywhere except on those 3 Dave Gilmour tracks.

Malcolm Jones: That's... (Syd makes a slight mistake).. y'see that I think isan acceptable mistake whereas the stuff they put on, I don't thinkthat it shows the songwriting process or whatever he's doing; thathe made a mistake & that he knows to go back & so on, whereas theMadcap things they did just made him look a babbling fool.

Ivor Trueman: It tends to play up to the lunatic image.

Malcolm Jones: That's creating an image for somebody who didn't necessarilydeserve quite as bad as that.
(2nd version ends)

Malcolm Jones: I think that's better than some I've got.


Ivor Trueman: Is this one of yours?

Malcolm Jones: No. I have got other versions of this. It sounds as thoughsomeone's adding echo to identify it as their bootleg rather thananybody else's.

Ivor Trueman: That's happened before...

Malcolm Jones: I always liked this one actually, this song.Ivor Trueman: What was your reaction to the version that came out, were theother versions better?

Malcolm Jones: I think so yeh, a bit sad really, something is, after a whileyou get used to some the more you hear it & you forget how good theother things were.


Malcolm Jones: There's a bit, a chord sequence that comes from Silas Lang,the bit there is the chord sequence of "the land in Silas stands"...that semitone up thing sounds quite unusual...did Syd ever likesaxophones?

Ivor Trueman: (See the Miles book for what I said here.)

Malcolm Jones: I don't recognise it but certainly the guitar style is Sydishisn't it ?


Malcolm Jones: This is Syd. It annoys me that people, whenever I've playedanything for anybody..

Ivor Trueman: But this hasn't come from you, it's from EMI

Malcolm Jones: Then why don't they release it?

Malcolm Jones: Is the song complete, the whole thing goes on for 7 mins orso.Ivor Trueman: I think so, except Syd doesn't sing the line "I'm drowning,I'm drowning"

Malcolm Jones: The whole pathos comes in the line 'I'm drowning', that's thewhole... Perhaps it's just on the tape that he sung to me then? That does sound almost exactly, well to my ears, exactly the sametape.

Ivor Trueman: Without that line..


Malcolm Jones: Don't say anything, let me just... At the beginning there'ssomething odd about it that I couldn't fathom. There's a certaintimbre on his voice that's not there it could just be the tape,it's his style. It is Syd. Don't suppose is has a title has it?

Ivor Trueman: People call it The Word Song or Untitled Words

Malcolm Jones: Syd's not said what it's supposed to be called?

Ivor Trueman: I don't know.


Malcolm Jones: I've never heard this before, where's this meant to have comefrom? Did it come from Abbey Road? Y'see if it come from AbbeyRoad then it's a different story than if it came from ManchesterSquare or whereever..EMI Manchester Square have always said theyhaven't got it.

Ivor Trueman: They said that about STLS/VM.

Malcolm Jones: I'm just wondering if I ever sent them a cassette of the stuffI've got, in which case it could just be in somebody's drawer, coswhen I wrote to Terry Slater, I'm just trying to think if I senthim a cassette or not; he's the AR guy who I was trying to get torelease the stuff-he'd never even return my call.

Ivor Trueman: Perhaps he didn't like it?

Malcolm Jones: Well yes, but all he'd have to do is look in the sales figures& find out how many Syd Barrett albums they've sold. It's just apurely commercial venture isn't it? Nothing to do with whether helikes it or not. There's plenty of people who do, but he justnever returned my call. I wrote four time & then I rang up & hesaid "Oh no the person you need now is Dick Landser", who I used toknow when I was at EMI. Who is shall we say, an aging bald man whoputs out all the Geoff Love albums & all that stuff. So whythey've referred Syd's stuff to him I've no idea, and I actuallyrang up one Friday & said 'look I've had all these people.. tworecord companies that I know of want the stuff, are you interestedor are you not?' And I spoke to his secretary, this is about 4o'clock in the afternoon & she said 'Oh he's gone to lunch & won'tbe coming back today'. I left my name, he knows me or remembers mefrom those days, and I never even heard.

Ivor Trueman: What about the last Harvest compilation, the Art SchoolDancing LP, I mean Syd got a track on that?

Malcolm Jones: yeh, Oh sure there's people there who are interested., thosethings are rather silly because, it's like when they did the DaveEdmunds thing. The Dutch put a really great Dave Edmundscompilation out & I wrote to EMI and said if you do the equivalenthere ring me up 'cos I've got all the longer versions of things, &it would make it slightly more interesting. And it's the same withthe Harvest stuff. Somewhere, and I really don't know where I'vekept an acetate of "Singing A Song In The Morning" with Syd on. (Julian's note: Probably the same acetate that turned up on the 'Rhamadhan' RoIo)

Ivor Trueman: Religious Experience

Malcolm Jones: yeh, and it actually said on the label 'Religious Experience'. It was before we even changed the title & y'know "ring me up" I'mnot going to find it if EMI weren't interested; nobody did anythingabout it, it's really sad, cos it'd make it more interesting thanit was.

Ivor Trueman: Did you produce that session?

Malcolm Jones: No, my name's on the label, all I did was mix it. PeterJenner produced the original track & it was really rather messy,and it was a really good song, y'know a catchy tune.

Ivor Trueman: a commercial hit..

Malcolm Jones: yeh that was it, here was me saying 'hey this is a greatrecord here but it's a bit messy' & so I rubbed Syd out! er... Well, it was a great song, let's try for a hit. In those days itdidn't matter, Syd was still; we could still put Syd's version onthe LP or whatever, it didn't matter. But it was a very good song& Peter Jenner said 'Oh if we're gonna do that let's call itSinging A Song In The Morning! Trying to get Tony Blackburn toplay it on his morning programme...Here comes the dumb question.

Ivor Trueman: Have you got a favourite Syd Barrett song?Malcolm Jones: (sighs) Everybody asks me that, not really no.

Ivor Trueman: It seemed like a good question at the time.

Malcolm Jones: Oh sure yeh, its like people asking me my favourite BuddyHolly record. One day I can give you one answer & the next day Ican give you another. Probably would be "Clowns & Jugglers", theone that came out. It's funny actually cos it's so smart comparedto the original one & I always quite liked that. I always think ofthem with the original titles.

Ivor Trueman: Did Clowns & Jugglers have different lyrics?

Malcolm Jones: No, it's just he called it Clowns & Jugglers & decided to callit Octopus later. (Julian's note: Actually, it has an extra verse: 'Up, up, touching hips to a madcap gallopping chase') I'd have preferred it to be called Clowns &Jugglers actually, I think it's a much nicer title.

Malcolm was digging through folders & assorted bits of paper likean envelope with Jerry Shirley/Willie Wilson's addresses on that hewrote when they turned up during the Madcap sessions.

Malcolm Jones: Somewhere I've got a list of what EMI sent to America toCapitol, & Capitol turned down. Everybody talks about the Beatlesbeing turned down but they turned down the Animals, Herman'sHermits, the Dave Clark Five, everybody, The Yardbirds; theywouldn't release them & all those artists went to other labels. Originally Capitol wouldn't release Syd's album. It was only whenthe Floyd were so big & had so much clout in England that they putit out.

Looking through some of the recording sheets for the 'Barrett' LPI was quite startled that in one session they'd attempted 15 takesof one song but Malcolm said that most of them would be like theengineer saying something then Dave & so on. The recording sheetswere like the one at the beginning of the Making Of The MadcapLaughs, the ones I saw for 'Barrett' were dated 26/2/70, 27/2/70,1/4/70, 2/4/70, & 3/4/70. None of them listed titles that didn'tappear on the album, so where Birdy Hop etc come from I don't know. (Actually the 26/2/70 listed Living Alone and Bob Dylan Blues.) Looking at another sheet referring to Madcap Malcolm again takes upthe story.

Malcolm Jones: y'see this is what annoys me, y'see I didn't even mix my stuff& by the time Dave & Roger had taken over I was quite happy to letthem do it, & er then they did every one of my mixes first off andthey didn't even go back & see if they could improve it. They justdid em straight through. They did the same on their tapes as theydid on mine, so there was no politics involved...

Ivor Trueman: I think as far as they were concerned they were running out oftime, I've often wondered about the kind of friction that must havedeveloped through the Floyd split-up, surely it couldn't havehelped Syd's solo sessions with Dave/Roger & Rick.

Malcolm Jones: Dave, I remember, he always seemed to me to care for Syd & tobe rather protective about him, I mean that's probably why theywanted to produce him once he'd decided once he knew that EMI wereinterested properly. The occasions we went round to Dave's flat toborrow his amp we didn't stay long but it was all matey & the factthat Dave was lending him his amplifier, and that was before Davewas involved with the LP. Dave was the P.R. man in terms of cominginto EMI, more than Roger & I can remember him at least twiceasking how Syd's sessions were going, when I was doing it.

Looking through at some bits of paper with Ramadan down Malcolmrecalled the 3 hours (10:30am to 1:00pm actually) that they triedto put overdubs of a motorcycle onto the Ramadan track.

Malcolm Jones: Oh it's a good idea, it's just that the thing he had was thisterrible little cassette player, I mean you know what cassetteplayers were like in those days...

Ivor Trueman: Was he actually serious about that. (Syd had recorded somemotor bike sounds on the back of his friend's bike-with thisportable cassette & wanted to overdub this onto the Ramadan track.)

Malcolm Jones: Oh yes, we spent hours on it, the tape was no good, the firstthing we did was try & link the cassette up through the desk, Ithink we made up a lead eventually, & we spent hours & then theengineer said it was not really very good so we said alright, cosEMI's got a good effects library. So we went along & dug out allthe sound effects & spent hours putting them onto tape because thesound effects records are all one bit, the engine revving etc... &you add them all together. I don't think we stuck it on anything,I'm not sure where it was intended to go..

Ivor Trueman: I've heard rumours that the Floyd used it in Atom HeartMother.

Malcolm Jones: I haven't got that album, I doubt it, it won't be Syd's tape.

Again one of Malcolm's pieces of paper (he has quite a few of them)shows that Ramadan & the motorbike effects were entered into thetape library mixed down to stereo but not joined together.That just about concludes the interview, we also talked aboutthe possible reprinting of The Making Of The Madcap Laughs, & forpeople without a copy there should be some good news sometime.Finally I'd like really like to thank Malcolm for his time,his tea & music.

Those people interested in obtaining Malcolm Jones' incredible bookThe Making Of The Madcap Laughs should look on forsyd_studio_sessions.Malcolm Jones has, very unfortunately, since died of liverproblems.

Ivor Trueman is currently neck deep in Delirium Records, managingsuch groups as Porcupine Tree, and is an Echoes subscriber.

I'd also like to thank Bruce H., The Hedonist, Vernon, and Jon R.without whom life, itself, would not be possible.

Scott Frank(Your cuddly Syd scholar)